Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

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rossatdi
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Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:46 pm

I went to the excellent Cardiff Crusade at the weekend (basically a 30k vs 40k weekend) and it very much solidified a feeling I've been getting with 40k.

40k, while retaining the wonderful models and background it always has, seems utterly stupid now. There weren't brutal any 40k formations (because they, and allies, were outright banned) and that was the thing that balanced it.

The 30k games I've had recently have been amazing. Fun, (reasonably) balanced and close games. I appreciate the concept of agreeing what kind of game you want to play before hand, but it seems that you need to be quite strict with 40k to avoid playing stuff of massively different power levels. With 30k, you can just about go Lords of War yes/no and points limit and away you go.

I used to really enjoy 40k tournaments but having started x-wing recently, it's just a better game for serious 'competitive' play. Obviously its not as rich or as vibrant, but you can go to a tournament and fly and good list against net lists and still do well. I think you'd struggle to do that at 40k tournaments.

Those that know me, know I like playing hard lists. The last 6-12 months have changed that for me. I played two D-spewing super heavies at Vanquish and it was fun to beat them, but not to play them (if that makes sense). The idea of playing Bs5 warp spiders backed up by scatbikes and d-cannons, or a million space marine OS units, or a lynx on a skyshield, doesn't interest me.

I don't know if there was really a point to all that, just kind of wanted to say it...

What are other people feeling?
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby bluffreggie » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:53 pm

Yeah I've stated this recently over in another post. I feel I'm getting a better game against someone else who's playing 30k. I know that it pretty much comes down to tactics and skill (still luck with the dice as well) but after playing that bs5 eldar army with d strength and move 36" in one move shoot and run away has finished my drive to play 40k specifically.

I had some great games at the weekend however I believe that was because of the like minded people who didn't go ott.

What grips my S*** is the massive 'we don't care about what you think' or 'lack of.balancing' that gw do with their codex.

Sure there is some nasty stuff in 30k but we can all access it so it's a level playing field.

I can't emphasise enough how crappie it was to play against a wraithknight who didn't lose more than one wound in an entire game.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby faith is my shield » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:00 pm

I agree with the concept that if your not enjoying a system, don't play it. If you enjoy playing other systems and you find it rewarding then why would you stop.

What I'm finding is that certain people are far to fast to put people's posts and enjoyment behind there own feeling of disappointment of the system in question which is causing people to stop posting and asking question in fear of being slated.

40k/30k games are all about an agreement before hand, how many points, squad types and primarchs in friendly games.

When you see a tournament that you like and choose to attend, you write a list inline with the rules pack.

I agree that GW have pulled the game down in the past year or so but when talking about tournaments and over all enjoyment it's the rule pack that dictates the style of games your be playing and the same would go with a friendly game, you make an agreement.

I do think that 40k and 30k should be split on to two forums as its two systems with different approaches and feelings.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Nekhromosis » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:17 pm

bluffreggie wrote:What grips my S*** is the massive 'we don't care about what you think' or 'lack of.balancing' that gw do with their codex.


I thought you where going to say 'we don't care about what you think' referencing the player base who exploit those OTT rules, like spamming the hell out of them in order to plug up their own tactical inability or taking nonsensical allies. After all, I've played the same editions everyone else has but have never ran a Necron Destroyer Lord+wraith or crytek+Deathgmark combos, or spammed the limit out of the best units in a codex. I personally blame the player base who hide behind the "its legal" S*** in order to defend their over competitive mentality in a game of toys soldiers.

But I do feel 40K has become way too convoluted rule wise and the special rules themselves OTT. Choice and variety is great, but not when there are no brainer choices for the uber competitives, becuase you just see the same things over and over again. But this isn't a new thing. The game was silly when Battle wagon spam, Double Slaaneshi DPs and leafblower guard lists were all the rage for anyone who took the game took seriously. You can either choose the join the stupid arms race (as a means to prove something, what I don't really know) or you simply jump ship to another system or the hobby all together.

While X-Wing may have the balance better you still have the uber builds which certain players will always resort to in order to better their chances of beating their opponents that require less tactical smarts, but the beauty of X-Wing is that even a not so optimised list can potentially still triumph over some that are with some well thought out tactics.

I'm keeping an eye on Age of Sigmar at the moment, like X-Wing, it too has a very basic gaming mechanic which is easy to pick up and the individual unit/model rules don't seem too OTT. Only time will tell if this remains the case and power creep doesn't rear its ugly head (I'm looking at you Celestant Prime), but I can't help but get a feeling of pleasant relief not having to concern myself with under or over costed point values, a feeling I would welcome with 40K. Many may doubt that this will ever happen because of 40K's following, but never say never.... fantasy players scoffed at the notion of round bases!! No reason to believe that 40K is any safer. GW like to mix it up and totally rewrite stuff (6th ed was a very different beast than 5th) and I couldn't think of any better way than to massively simplifying 40K, throwing out many of those OTT rules in the bargain.
Last edited by Nekhromosis on Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Nekhromosis » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:24 pm

faith is my shield wrote:What I'm finding is that certain people are far to fast to put people's posts and enjoyment behind there own feeling of disappointment of the system in question which is causing people to stop posting and asking question in fear of being slated.


Man up princess! Expect ridicule if you take ridiculous lists!! regardless of the the event. I've seen and experienced far too many games where an over competitive mentality as destroyed another's reasonable wish to have an enjoyable and decent game. Its the over competitive mindset that ultimately drives players away.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:38 pm

Easy guys. Toy soldiers here.

It's not really the competitive mind set, it's the S*** system behind it. I took x-wings to my first tournament, which is not a net list. Played some hard lists and did well.

FFG have made a tight system where skill can happily match netlisting. 30k is tournament capable because of its inherent balance. The problem with 40k is that the dominant tournament style encourages foul, nonsense lists.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby bluffreggie » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:02 pm

I was massively put off X-wing by specific builds that were knocking around, ojs nasty list and ians swarm list that gave everyone pilot skill 9 really put me off and apart from a one day event at big I haven't played since (even there the spare player list was F*** broken!).

I've recently picked up armada which I am loving. Im sure there's going to be some power combos but those I play with at the minute are like minded and rely more.on skill!

We should probably have a separate 30k forum now as there is a growing player Base for it.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Nekhromosis » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:56 pm

rossatdi wrote:Easy guys. Toy soldiers here.

It's not really the competitive mind set, it's the S*** system behind it. I took x-wings to my first tournament, which is not a net list. Played some hard lists and did well.

FFG have made a tight system where skill can happily match netlisting. 30k is tournament capable because of its inherent balance. The problem with 40k is that the dominant tournament style encourages foul, nonsense lists.


A system is only as broke as the player base who plays it.

One of the reasons why Vanquish had a growing attendance year by year in the face of the rankings popularity and netlists, was that we made a considered effort to counter OTT use/exploitation of the rules and openly disregarded rankings. I fear we have lost that of late.

As Dan said, X-Wing can be just as broke and imbalanced as 40K. I've played a 100pt game where I had 3 ships with a total of 9 hull vs two ships with a total of 24!! hull/shields. No matter which way you cut that.... there is a significant imbalance there. I'm sure if Marcus took up 30k, you would soon start to see the imbalance in that game too! Its the players that ultimately imbalance the game and test the rules to its limits where those limits where never intended to be tested.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:42 pm

Well yes and no. A good player base can prop up a wonky rules set, 40k being a great example. But I'm intrigued as how you're going to stop Eldar winning Vanquish 2016! They scored three of the five top spots with the old Codex, which was under-powered compared to the new one. The actual rules set for 40k is pretty solid, the codexes is where the real problem comes in; hence 30k's more balanced environment.

There's a lot of work that goes into building a decent event pack for 40k. For x-wing, you read the rules FFG puts out ... and you're good. That is a tight rules set. Yes there are 'stronger' lists. There will be stronger tactics in any game that isn't exactly even like chess (white ftw! etc), that is inevitable. But a good list flown by an excellent player *will* normally beat an excellent off the shelf national winning list flown by just a good player.

Have to disagree on X-wing. You can definitely make bad x-wing lists, you can in any game, but you cannot make "i win" lists like you can in 40k. The example of x-wing you're giving is an extreme. 3 interceptors is very exposed to unlucky dice and bad match ups. Saying that, what was that two ship list? Was that a yt-1300 and yt-2400? Big ships come with disadvantages and have just gotten more vulnerable with the recent release. I've beaten dual IGs with my XXAA list, and I'm not experienced at x-wing yet.

That's the next nice thing about a good games system. FFG are routinely messing with the meta in a productive way. You can't (and shouldn't) expect the balance of a collectible game to stay fixed forever. You're going to be seeing a lot more squads of 4Ys with twin-laser turrets that will chew up two-ship lists rapidly ... and all of a suddent three interceptors with stealth devices and autothrusters are really powerful. That flexibilty is massively aided by the ease of assembling a new squad. It's not £150 and three months of painting to adapt to a new release. It's one or two purchases around or under £20.

By comparison, 40k is spinning the opposite direction. The last Eldar codex was a bit over the top, so they ... turned everything up to 11. The last space marine codex had some painfully obvious over dominant units (bike master, grav centurions) so ...they made it really easy for centurions to gain drop pod access (oh, and did Raven Guard need a nerf? christ on a bike). Dark Angels weren't great, they did need a bit of buffing, easy access to 2+ or 3+ re-rollable cover saves you say? Woo. Or if you're unlucky, like Guard, Orks and Grey Knights you can take a massive kicking from a new codex. So many of these units are take them or have a S*** list, which is not good.

Part of the disappointment with 40k is that two good friends play Eldar. They now have to try, hard, to *not* build staggeringly powerful lists. I don't want to play Eldar anymore. It's not really very fun and it's as unfair on the Eldar players as anyone else.

The vast majority of issues with 40k seem to disappear when you demote the first digit. I'm paint stripping the last of my heresy compatible white scars tanks over the next week. I love my scars, but what's the point? The odds of getting a good balanced game are so slim.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby ObviousPlayer » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:04 am

At least in X-Wing a "Deathstar army list" has real relevance! :)

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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby bluffreggie » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:41 am

haha yeah i suppose so, i just disliked the amount of S*** upgrade combinations that people were bringing to the table; they obviously had more time to look online at net lists or explot the cards themsleves!
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Devilshot » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:52 am

I agree that 40k has some very unbalanced codexs and builds and is not designed to be a tournament game straight for the book. Having said that with some simple comp fun can still be had when playing in tournaments.

Some of this comes down to your mentality when entering an event. You have to except that some people gain their enjoyment from creating strong/broken lists and that they will turn up with what they feel is the strongest build allowed within the event pack. This will happen whenever you have any form of ranking at an event.

30k is in no way safe from this, certain builds will be stronger than others and as it grows in popularity you will see a rise in competitive players looking for competitive events to play in.
In my opinion the reason 30k has so far managed to remain reasonably balanced is that the release schedule is considerably slower than 40k and legions tend to be released in clumps and on the whole have access to the same kit as each other. That does not mean that it is not possible to create broken lists just that everyone has the option to create them.
You could create a similar balance by holding a 40k event that only allowed lists picked from the standard Marine codex.
My point is that anyone entering a tournament be it 30k or 40k needs to accept that some of those players entering will be doing so to win and will write list that they feel will give them the best chance. If you do not wish to face these sorts of lists then perhaps tournament play is not for you.
Personally I see tournaments as an opportunity to play several games hopefully against people I haven't played before with the models I want to play with and yes sometimes I get smashed by power lists but that just means that in my next game I should be playing against someone with a similar power level list as my own.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:06 am

bluffreggie wrote:haha yeah i suppose so, i just disliked the amount of S*** upgrade combinations that people were bringing to the table; they obviously had more time to look online at net lists or explot the cards themsleves!


Those combos are kind of half the point of the game! It's really easy to play with lists in xwing because of all the online builders. Its balanced by the need to fly them well!
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Ruglud » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:18 am

40k takes too much time these days ...

Too much time to play due to a properly messed up rule set with too many phases
Too much time to adjust your army (buy, build, paint) if you want to go to tournaments. It is even worst now that different tournaments have different formats (e.g. LOW yes/no, FW yes/no, etc.).
Too much time to adjust your army to adapt to the new meta with this neck-breaking release cycle.
Too much time to read all the new rules

I am sure 40k is still an enjoyable game if:
- you are a casual gamer who has a army of some sort and doesnt care to be occasionally crushed
- you have a LOT of time to dedicate to the hobby

Also the concept of playing well with a (strong) balanced army has gone down to the loo, all strong builds are now heavy indestructible hammers. You can play MSU and play the denial game but it is not really much fun if you have to play it all the time.

Frankly I have no confidence in GW changing their ways; a company is still made of people and I dont really think there are good game designers there any more. And I cannot really see why I have to spend some of my preciously rare free time to fix the inability of a game company to produce a decent game that doesnt take 3 hours to play and half an hour discussion in negotiating the terms of the game.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby bluffreggie » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:30 am

rossatdi wrote:Those combos are kind of half the point of the game! It's really easy to play with lists in xwing because of all the online builders. Its balanced by the need to fly them well!


i understand the choice you are given is a good thing, so you can tailor your lists to your own specific play style. when i face an opponent i want to have an enjoyable game, not one where im critisized for taking a ship thats not fitted correctly with updgrades! again, thats only the oppponent that impacts upon the game not the game itself.

it will be intresting to see the rise in power of the new tau codex when it comes out to see if the power creep is still ongoing. I presume it will be, and that spoils may well be host to a shed load of new tau dick suits!
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:33 pm

Devilshot wrote:If you do not wish to face these sorts of lists then perhaps tournament play is not for you.


Here's the thing. I love tournament play. I love playing hard lists. But playing 'hard lists' at 40k is radically different what it was even three years ago. A hard list back then was a destroyer lord with wraiths, which is almost quaint now.

There's always going to be bad, better and best lists in a game where you can build armies. However, since they fixed Lorgar I can't really see much in 30k which is just staggeringly broken. Yeah Typhons are a bit much but there's loads of fast meltabombs and haywire for that. Also, it's really easy to just ask for say a 2k no-LoW game at 30k, then there's not that much you can do to completely break the game.

30k is partially self-balanced by it's release approach. But other games use the 'wave' mechanism rather than the army book approach, and do better for it. They're bloody minded non-balanced approach is maddening for what is supposed to be a game. No one would play monopoly if one player started with 75% of the cash!

Similarly in X-wing. I took a non-top tier squadron to my first tournament and came mid table. There were IG, Dash, Chewie, Horn and Han lists below me as well as above. The quality of the players was making a massive difference.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Devilshot » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:50 pm

I agree with you that the wave approach is a better way to balance Warmahordes, X-Wing and many CC's use this style of release schedule and Guildball also seems to be heading down that path.

Apart from the schedule what all of these games have in common is that competitive play is encouraged and supported by the company concerned who release packs and guildance for playing tournaments using their games and ensure that regular FAQ's And errata are also published.
Many if not all of these company's also maintain forums and actively engage with the player community so are able to monitor how the models and their rules are be used and interpreted by the player base.
GW don't do this !

It is therefore upto the TO's and players attending the events to put into effect restrictions to attempt to balance the game and players to provide the TO's with feedback on event packs so that everyone involved is able to gain the most enjoyment for their games.

I hope that 30k remains a reasonably balanced game as I have just started to buy into it
myself. I understand your frustration with 40k and some of the ridiculous decisions GW seems to be making with its Codexs. In my opinion unless GW starts to listen to the people playing the game and produce guild lines for competitive play then it will only become more dis balanced with every new release.
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Merrick » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:57 pm

-reads thread-

-sighs-

And this is why I play Blood Bowl.

-leaves thread-
I'll be the guy holding a cider and swearing at the dice.

I also have a fine collection of wooden spoons.

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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby bluffreggie » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:07 pm

I think that the TOs have to work harder to ensure that the game is still enjoyable by most people, which is fine. However your always going to get the lists with one wraithknight, a shed load of jetbikes and an imperial knight!
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby rossatdi » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:13 pm

Devilshot wrote:I hope that 30k remains a reasonably balanced game as I have just started to buy into it
myself. I understand your frustration with 40k and some of the ridiculous decisions GW seems to be making with its Codexs. In my opinion unless GW starts to listen to the people playing the game and produce guild lines for competitive play then it will only become more dis balanced with every new release.


With you 100% on both counts. I'm planning a few more Raven Guard units, mostly using stuff I own. I don't see doing a new 40k army any time soon for exactly those reasons. Would rather spend less money on more games that are better balanced.

GW could fix 40k with two simple hires;
1 full time communications officer with a focus on social media.
1 full time rules designer / balancer. Tasked with leading development and creating a coherent, reasonably balanced set of rules (and regular FAQs).
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Re: Lost interest in 40k, love 30k

Postby Nekhromosis » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Ross, I agree with the points you make but I still feel the buck ultimately stops at the player's themselves. I'm not familiar with the Eldar codex but I'm sure I could come up with a reasonablly fluffy, decent but not over bearing list.

I like the idea of a Imperial Knights (tempted my the Chaos version obviously) and like the Khorne Kytan model but I would never seek to combine both or use them in a list with other big powerful units/Allies, let alone take an entire army of them, as cool as that is. I just appreciate how daughting and impeding such a list could be for a fun game for both players.

X-Wing, I have both YTs but I would never 'fatten' them up in the manner that most seem to gravitate to. And you will never see me fly both at the same time. I do however fly dual IGs (more likely and fluffy that duel YTs) but they can be a glass hammer. I've won and lost well with them and you still need a decent degree of tactics to fly them. Hull/shield heavy turreted ships (such as the YTs) can sercumvent their weaknesses fairly well with various upgrades and are often a hard fought up hill fight to most lists. Not unbeatible, but often a pretty predictable game. But then I would also like to see the generic YT pilots played more. Its a shame FFG didn't allow for more customization on these pilots, but hopefully we can expect something in the future.

Jim is right regarding GW and its approach to organised play, which it used to do once upon a time. But I can't help but suspect that part of that change in direction is due the over competitive tournament scene that was vast becoming all devouring. The Rankings system being the prime example.

Ruglud wrote:40k takes too much time these days ...

Too much time to play due to a properly messed up rule set with too many phases
Too much time to adjust your army (buy, build, paint) if you want to go to tournaments. It is even worst now that different tournaments have different formats (e.g. LOW yes/no, FW yes/no, etc.).
Too much time to adjust your army to adapt to the new meta with this neck-breaking release cycle.
Too much time to read all the new rules


Which is why I feel that its going to come to a head at some point and receive the Age of Sigmar treatment. AOS is GW testing the water for that direction.

But 40K is now more than ever a community based game. We decide what kind of game we want to play and what kind of organised event we want to hold. I may be a harsh critic of the overly competitive scene but if those style of events is what floats certain player's boats then happy sailing. As long as they don't muddy the waters of more relaxed events then I'm good. Its a shame we don't tend to see many events that shake up the same old format, 500pt games, Kill teams, proper olds Skool back to basics stuff but then players don't seem to want to try something out of the ordinary. the mere mention of excluding turrets from x-wing gets a mostly negative response. You have to blame the player base who dictate the spirit in which these games are played. God fordid we should play a game from a different angle for a change.

Many argue a game revolves around the focus of winning... when this is not the case. The purpose of a game is to enjoy the time spent playing it. Its an enjoyable leisurely activity we do in our down time. Whether someone wins or loses is merely a by product of that time spent. Those who focus too heavily on winning twists its purpose into something that devolves into what we experience today in many if not all games. There is always that player at christmas that takes Monopoly too seriously and so spoils the fun for every body else.
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