31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby skindog » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:12 pm

Dom & James; Cai has your Soontir cards.

I enjoyed the day, the guy who was running it had never ran an event before so didn't realize 3 rounds was a bad idea, there was always going to be a top 8 cut, he was just gonna cut to a top 4 & then 5-8, it was a bad idea from the start but he learnt that the hard way. I flew badly in the KO round, flying dash into range of my opponents dash & having my chewie out of range of everyone, then my Dash decided he didn't want to hurt his clone & it didn't last long from there!!!

Over all I was happy with my flying over the day apart from one small mistake in the KO round that cost me the game. I'm pretty sure I'm done flying that list though as even though I enjoyed flying it I want to get some small based ships out!
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Nekhromosis » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:33 pm

Well I didn't kill a single thing in all three games. reduced a few ships to 1 hull but always bit the space dust before I could finish them off. Even two pesky rookie X-Wings managed to survive. The clusters pretty much failed in every game to hit their marks with me firing off a total of 18 in one turn and only managing to take out 4 shields, not because his evading was top notch but because I couldn't roll for S***!! :|

Also, no surprises on ther Dash/YT turnout. Lets hope Scum changes that but I suspect we'll see Scum driven meta replace YT mania!! Time to consider more alternative x-wing driven events me thinks… less 100pts FFG torny rules and more outside the box ideas as welcome change of pace.

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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Domfluff » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:13 pm

Just some meandering thoughts, but I was actually wondering about alternative rules for competitive events - specifically how something like:

1) Only using material up to Wave 3 (so no C3PO, Phantoms, Dash etc. - i.e., when they changed developers...)

or more practically 2) Banning ACD and "Outrider" Title.

I do wonder what the effect would be, and whether this would make for a more interesting meta or tournament.

Bannings are always a bad idea (since it's a symptom of failure). With M:TG, if they have an oppressive archetype, they rarely ban the card that makes the archetype, but the cards that support it to make it oppressive - so if Dash + Outrider + HLC was determined to be a mistake, they wouldn't ban Dash, they'd ban the least possible to make him silly - the Outrider title would stop the oppression of the meta, but wouldn't kill off as many other lists as banning HLC would, for example. Likewise, Phantoms without ACD are still useful, but they're not the format-warping ship they are now.

I think it's probably inevitable that X-Wing would need a banned list at some point, if it's going to remain as a decent game at the competitive level. Partly this is due to the lack of any rotation - eventually you build into a critical mass where there's only one or two ways to do things.

The problem I can see with ACD Phantoms is that they make too many other lists useless - I can imagine they'd be very strong against the double IG-88 builds, for example, and they pretty much make bomber swarms (already marginal), completely useless.

With Dash, IG-88 is a good answer, but it's a good answer by being a bigger, better ship. If you start going down that route, you're just one-upping yourself, and you end up with a tournament environment that looks less like Magic, and more like Warhammer 40,000, which no-one wants.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Ginjasy » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:45 pm

Could always try out some forms of comp. Or maybe try Escalation. Or have a small ships only event.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby skindog » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:19 pm

I think there is no need for comp or banning of anything, the dash meta that is being moaned about has only existed since what November? will only exist until February, it only actually encompasses a small period of the FFG official competitive season! a list has been strong for 3 months & is soon to be made a lot less powerful already & people are screaming for comp? its totally un-necessary if you ask me. & lets actually look at the results & see how many Outrider builds we had outside the top 8, I think you will find there was at least one of the 4 dash & falcon builds, its a high percentage that get used yes & it is easy mode yes but you still need to be able to do well with it to win the event & lets not forget it DIDN'T win the event, Sy's Decimator build beat the dash & chewie build TWICE! including beating the guy that ended up in the final. Why am I not hearing ban the Decimator? why is a 4/5 dice turret with an evade token & target lock not being moaned about? its winning events as much as dash.....

Have you flown phantoms without ACD? have you flown phantoms much at all? they are HARD to fly, once you learn them yes they become very powerful, but ONE mistake or bad roll & its over for them. I am not a bad pilot, I had a lot of success with interceptors in the past, I however struggle with Phantoms, I'm not used to them yet, once I do get used to them I'm sure I can be quite dangerous with them, but I will have to learn them, I see NO issue with that as a ship.

To be honest I'm hearing a lot of X & Y is broken & not a lot of discussion on how to learn to beat it, why don't we start discussing ways to beat such a list rather than moaning about it, lets be the ones to over-throw it (Like Ian has) & not join the internet whiners.


Once the FFG competitive season is over at the end of may I have plans for running epic events & other formats just right about now if you run Epic all you hear is moaning about only one side having epic ships, once the raider comes out that all changes & things get very exciting on the epic front, currently we are just starting the competitive season, don't worry if that ain't your thing, there is just as much fun epic & alternative stuff coming up after may!
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Nekhromosis » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:37 pm

The relatively brief YT (or large ship+turret) domination peroid is no different then its equivelent lists among 40k. Those list too were top tier until a new codex came out to shift the meta, but bled the life out of the game for many who were not able or willing to compete in that meta arms race. A net list is a net list no matter what game system it's from, and in my view, has a negative impact on events for that game. But we shouldn't be surprised that such builds will be prolithic at an official FFG endorsed event complete with all the shiny limited/exclusive prizes in the same way many of us but the more competetive began to avoid GW GTs and eventually the game altogether. But at these endorsed events is where they should be expected.

Its the same old battle…. casual play vs competetive. Some go to events to serously compete while others, like myself, go just to play a different circle of players. X-Wing is no different to 40K in that respect. And so like 40K, which has had a longer life than X-Wing, now needs comp the create event variety in order to make it appeal for a wider player base, then I feel X-Wing can also benefit from that approach to help keep the game fresh and intewesting, without having to rely on waiting for FFGs next wave the address the current meta.

Personally I would like to see more lesser used pilots for a particular ship type, but you are never going to see them as long as the best pilots are the no brainer option. Sure, FFG will hopefully mix it up with each release but in the meantime you are only going to encourage change/variety by excluding the usual suspects or limiting their ability to tool up to meta effect. Once the hard hitters are no longer an option or less of a beast, will you then see the lesser known pilots and god forbid, none named pilots become viable.

I don't see any reason why X-Wing can't have FFG torny style uber competetive events and more themed/comp driven casual events in its annual gaming calender. Providing the basis of the game is kept intact (space ships out manoeuvring each other) then I struggle to see why forming alternative whys to play the game with theme driven builds should be seen as a negative thing.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Domfluff » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:52 pm

I'm not suggesting banning Dash and ACD, I was wondering what effect it would have.


40K and Magic: The Gathering both have competitive scenes, and both are very different - X-wing doesn't rotate (nor should it), so you're looking at a structure that would ideally like to be similar to the eternal formats (i.e., all the cards ever, or all the cards from x point).

In Legacy Magic, you've generally gotten into situations where there are perhaps 20-30 mostly viable decks at one time (with plenty of similarities between them). Some of these are hard counters to others, so a large part of the meta is trying to work out what people will be doing.

The purpose of bannings is to take the game out of a state when you shift from a large pool of viable builds, to just a tiny number, usually when a problem card has been produced. I'm certain that X-wing will eventually need *some* bannings competitively - it would be a monumental task to produce a competitive game like this that didn't, without rotation.


I've no doubt there will be answers to a HLC turret, but what form those answers take is hugely important for the future of the competitive game. If the answer to a 4-dice turret was a 5 dice turret (or the equivalent), you're into the competitive 40K style of printing ever-more-powerful codexes as answers to the others - and the meta consists of buying the new things all the time. If Autothrusters had read something mental like "you cannot be targeted outside of the attackers primary fire arc", then you end up with a rock/paper/scissors situation - something forced, and really clumsy, but a meta which shifts primarily with the players, etc.


So... what *would* happen to the meta now if Outrider and ACD were banned?
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Domfluff » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:01 pm

Also, I've really enjoyed all the other tournaments, but this was the first time I've seen such a large percentage of the field play the same list. Part of the attraction of the previous runs was the variety of lists on offer.

I think it's pretty clear that the game is in a worse state than it used to be?

Scum may well change everything, and I really hope it does.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby skindog » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:06 pm

The difference in 40k was that one killer list would be around for a LONG time. There will be less competitive events coming up, we have just started the competitive season & trying to run anything whilst the calendar is flooded with competitive events isn't viable.

As for the lesser named pilots they were actually what was being moaned about 6-8 months ago, people were crying out for smaller elite lists to be more viable so that the likes of Wedge & other named heroes would be more attractive options, now we have that there is moaning that small elite squads with lots of upgrades are ruining the game etc. etc. the meta changes, with competitive events you will always get that list & people will play it to try and win. Once the competitive season is over after may it will be time to play around with some epic & alternative format events.

As for the dash list itself week in week out at the club I see VERY few uber lists being flown, I see a lot of different lists & if you check the hangars from the league very few of those net lists are there, If the hardcore competitive event with loads of dash's flying around isn't your (not directed solely at you Paul) idea of fun avoid them & play week to week at the club against varied lists & look forward to june & beyond when the more casual events will take priority. If you really want to go to a competitive event check out the Excelsior events, they are usually frequented by less competitive or newer players & so there is less of those net lists around. (I hate to use the term net list, it sounds negative & I see no reason for it not to be, there is nothing wrong with discussing your list ideas online & getting help from others, its no different to the conversations I had with Ian in the week leading up to the tournament about what lists to take & how to improve them)

I believe Outrider to be the powerful part of the Dash build, without that he still has to be flown relatively well, without ACD Phantoms become the new munitions, how often do you see proton torpedoes? that's what a Phantom would become, because if shot un-cloaked its almost certainly dead very quickly!

The meta is probably at its most restrictive currently as to what is powerful, because the 4 dice turret (I include decimators here as they essentially are a BETTER HLC) is very hard to counter, Scum will make interceptors & the like very viable against turrets & make a turrets arc become relevant again, Scum is going to shift EVERYTHING massively, I believe we will go back to having to point in the right direction, even if you have a turret. Its only a short storm to weather & I believe there is an excessive amount of negativity towards it at the moment, hang in until the Scum hit & you wait we'll be moaning about invincible Soontir Fel before the end of may....
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Hymirl » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:55 pm

I do agree with Domfluffs point on a need for rotation, in 40K a codex gets pulled and replaced, effectively 'banning' things in the process, 400 point deamon princes that move like cavalry and hit like a freight train had their day.

Quite how this would work I don't know. X wing bears more of its construction to card games like Magic than it does to 40K updating a faction in one swoop.

One day there will hopefully be X wing 2.0 but I don't think the game is so stale that drastic action be taken yet. While we've had big turrets being powerful for a few months its only been a few months and there is change on the horizon. Come July we could be grumbling about interceptors slaughtering all before them and asking if PtL should be banned?

That said I'd have a go at a comp tourny/event happily as a competitive one. I like all styles of play in the hobby.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby ScaredOfCrows » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:46 pm

I beat 2 Dash + chewie lists. 2 chewie + Landos and a Decimator + Whisper list with Fel, Echo and Yorr.

In the Bear wars league OJ was flying Echo, Fel and a shuttle (pretty much the same thing that I ran at the weekend but with 4 different upgrades and a different shuttle pilot). I beat that with the twin HWK list...

Stuff is annoying right now as running the megaturret ships are an easy way of avoiding game losing mistakes. They are therefore popular with players spending precious time and money on a tournament visit.

The metagame will change with the release of a new faction. I believe it will open up the game as the internet argues over what is the best list and no longer unanamously agree that running anything other than a megaturret is an autolose. With no strong flame for moth players to be drawn towards we will hopefully see more variety.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Vargas » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:05 pm

The game at club level has always been, and continues to be, excellent. We've got a decent blend of playstyles and it always feels fresh. That alone will keep me playing X-wing.

The competitive game is at an all time low though. This is to be expected considering the designers created an anti-turret card at the same time as wave 5 - a clear indication that they knew turrets would be (too) dominant. So hopefully it's a temporary thing.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Vargas » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:06 pm

Oh and congrats Ian. I think it's safe to say you deserved it.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Domfluff » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:17 am

I have enjoyed all of my games at the Old Duke - all you guys in Bristol are fantastic, and that is enough to keep going... but if the tournaments in March are anything like this one was, I'm not looking forward to them at all.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Nekhromosis » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:08 am

No complaints or moaning from me regarding dash builds at FFG endorsed events, as I said, this is to be expected and meta net lists is just a part of contempory gaming now, that we as players, can either choose to compete agianst or avoid. I would just like to see more players take a greater array of pilots than those proven to be hard hitters.

I go to events to play games agianst a different pool of people and take each game as it comes. Despite me not killing a single thing I still ultimately enjoyed each of my games because it allowed me to push Star Wars space ships around.

And I second Ian's success... well done that man :D
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby skindog » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:02 pm

I know you guys weren't moaning all that hard, I'm just bored of reading the same thing on every different X-Wing site I go on, I'd rather discuss ways to try & beat it than read complaints about it XD

I'm really glad that as a whole at club level we have all made the game so enjoyable to play, I think we can win events without resorting to the current big boy list (I know I was guilty of this & it partly stemmed from wanting to win & partly from the fact that I've liked the look of the 2400 since it was released & I just bought the falcon & wanted some use out of it)

I can't wait for Scum & I think the events in March will look very different because there will be the whole third faction & people will be taking them purely because they are new & cool.

I'm glad you still enjoyed the day Paul & I still think you can go to events with a not overly competitive list & as long as you miss one of the filth lists in the first round end up having a great day of X-Wing, I also enjoy meeting different people & actually recognized over half the field from other events & it was good to catch up with those guys & get chatting to different people with different ideas on how to approach the game.

It was also very nice to hear that Vanguard as a whole are known all over for our X-Wing & gaming exploits, even people I didn't recognize were saying "Oh yeah man, I heard Bristol has an awesome club" & things along those lines. We are really building a special group here & I think we are a competitive group of players who can win events without resorting to "that list"
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby ScaredOfCrows » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:49 pm

Cheers Vargas, Nekhromosis.

Had Echo not fluked a one shot on that full health Advanced and had Soontir not avoided damage when he was planted on a rock with one hull remaining in what turned out to be the penultimate turn, my day could have been very different. Well played Paul, I barely got out of that one alive. The 100-0 scoreline did not reflect the game.

Thanks to Simon and Rhys for being great opponents and their moral support in the final. Rhys and I played twice and the first game was too close. I was helped by us both missing something so It was good that we got to immediatly play each other again in the 1st K.O. round. Unfortunately Chewie landed on a rock and Lando was out of range at the alpha strike. I promptly rolled nothing but hits and eyeballs with my 10 attack dice and received no return fire... Simon got done by his dice early in the semi-final, whiffing with Whisper leaving the Phantom without token assistance and in arc of everyone.

Also thanks to Cai, Liam and Sam for sticking around to watch the travesty of a final match Tom and I showcased: I gave him the game when I forgot to ACD Echo when I was in a great position to win and he gave it back by flying off the board completely unprovoked!

R1 vs Paul 100-0
R2 vs Luke 100-26
R3 vs Rhys 100-0
QF vs Rhys 100-0
SF vs Simon 100-62
Final vs Tom 100-38

Played 6 won 6. F**k turrets. Who the king? etc.
Last edited by ScaredOfCrows on Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby skindog » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:51 pm

haha, it was a good day man, You played well, the final left everyone stunned!!! Congrats, we'd better start beating you soon!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Vargas » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:34 pm

skindog wrote:haha, it was a good day man, You played well, the final left everyone stunned!!! Congrats, we'd better start beating you soon!!! :lol: :lol:


Yup I didn't see you winning with that list. Great effort!
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Ginjasy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:04 pm

I think he got a bit sure of himself in the final and just threw down his dial, knowing in his mind "I've got this".
He should have been more careful and placed his dial and just quickly double checked it. He will from now on.
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Hymirl » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:50 pm

So Ian, going to regionals? :D
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby ScaredOfCrows » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:40 pm

Probably not considering the locations... I am tempted though. If I suddenly get loadsa monies then maybe.

Anyone want to purchase a bye? £10, but you will have to pretend to be me all day. I'll lend you the costume!

I'll probably just keep the card in my case and 'accidently' drop it every now and then so I can loudly say 'OH THERE'S MY REGIONAL ROUND 1 BYE' as I pick it up and generally act like a dick!
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Re: 31/1 Store Championships Bridgwater/ Reading

Postby Monk » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:23 pm

and not forgetting Milton Keynes has sold out
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