Tanksgiving 2017

For upcoming tournaments and Events local and further afield

What system would you like to play?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:56 pm

Flames of War - EW
0
No votes
Flames of War - MW
0
No votes
Flames of War - LW
5
83%
Team Yankee
1
17%
Something else
0
No votes
Nothing, I just like answering polls
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 6
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Lavallin
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Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Earlier this year I had a cunning plan of playing some linked games of Team Yankee, building up to a TY Tanksgiving event. For various reasons, this didn't fully pan out, but November is still ahead of us, and as one of our two main events a year, I am keen for us to do something for Tanksgiving.

So, what do people fancy? Team Yankee? Flames of War? And if so, any preference for era? I'm also open to suggestions for other games, so long as it meets the basic requirements of pushing some tanks around.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Stu's Idle » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:45 am

I've voted for LW Flames as I think more people will be able to join in. I'd be equally as happy with any other era of Flames or TY however.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Vyper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:11 pm

Voted for LW Flames, but equally happy with Early or Mid as well.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:01 pm

I'll let this run for a while longer, but it certainly looks like there's a strong frontrunner so far.

What about dates and format? I was indicatively thinking the weekend of 25th/26th Nov, as this is closest to actual Thanksgiving, but I'm happy to be guided by people's availability. And then for format, I thought maybe moderate points (~1400?) with two smaller initial rounds and then a team battle finale.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:32 pm

TY (or Mid War) gets my vote; could still be interested in playing late depending on format / pts
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Vyper » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:47 am

Lavallin wrote:What about dates and format? I was indicatively thinking the weekend of 25th/26th Nov, as this is closest to actual Thanksgiving, but I'm happy to be guided by people's availability. And then for format, I thought maybe moderate points (~1400?) with two smaller initial rounds and then a team battle finale.


I'm definitely free that weekend, as well as the 2nd/3rd December, but couldn't do 18th/19th as that is Reading Warfare so I'll be off raiding a bring and buy!

Happy with any points values but would like a team battle in particular. :)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:34 am

Is it safe to assume as it's Tanksgiving it's Tank Companies only?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:48 am

That's the thought at this point - although I'm happy to discuss if people desperately want to play something else. In my opinion, tanks play easier and faster, as well as meeting the theme.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:29 pm

Lavallin wrote:That's the thought at this point - although I'm happy to discuss if people desperately want to play something else. In my opinion, tanks play easier and faster, as well as meeting the theme.


Yep - that's my logic given the earlier pitch re: Fast/easy; not sure what the 'official' Tournament points are for 2017 but we could follow that as a baseline (1515 sounds familiar - can't think why though??)

Other ideas:
- Escalation - First round at 1400 pts, Second round at 1650 pts for example
- Given it's likely to be Tank Orientated games are generally quicker so maybe try 1685pts (or higher if there's a restriction on
Infantry support choices)
- 1000pts using 'Tank' Aces

Any view as to list restrictions or theatres (if any)?
- '44 lists seem to be relatively balanced (for late war at least), whereas it's relatively easy to 'spam' a list using Big Cats / US Armour from the Remagen book (Having said that, all the Axis / US '45 / Bulge lists look open to abuse :D )
Last edited by Jamrowski on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Stu's Idle » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:24 pm

The 25th is no good for CJ and I (off to watch Wales vs New Zealand) and the 26th might well see us both too hungover to play.
Flames Of War: Soviets
Team Yankee (6mm and 15mm): Soviets
Bolt Action: Soviets
DUST: SSU aka Soviets (anyone spotted the theme yet?)
Star Wars Armada: Imperials (Space Soviets, a long, long time ago)
Epic Armageddon: Imperials (Space Soviets, in the grim, far future)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:13 am

Jamrowski wrote:Yep - that's my logic given the earlier pitch re: Fast/easy; not sure what the 'official' Tournament points are for 2017 but we could follow that as a baseline (1515 sounds familiar - can't think why though??)


That's correct - 1515, albeit including the new points corrections/rebates for missing teams. My list for the UKGT initially displays as 1525.

Other ideas:
- Escalation - First round at 1400 pts, Second round at 1650 pts for example
- Given it's likely to be Tank Orientated games are generally quicker so maybe try 1685pts (or higher if there's a restriction on Infantry support choices)
- 1000pts using 'Tank' Aces


Happy to take people's views on any of these. I'm not certain that all of the Aces rules port well to v4, so that would probably be my least-favourite option. I quite like the idea of Escalation, if people are interested in that.

Also, me being me, I'll probably chuck in some other rules; these might include weather, time of day, random events, etc. Use of Tactical Edges is likely, and the final battle, if we do a team battle to conclude, might well use Fog of War objectives for fun.

Any view as to list restrictions or theatres (if any)?
- '44 lists seem to be relatively balanced (for late war at least), whereas it's relatively easy to 'spam' a list using Big Cats / US Armour from the Remagen book (Having said that, all the Axis / US '45 / Bulge lists look open to abuse :D )


I'm definitely open to this. Indicatively, if we said something like Overlord/Atlantik Wall; Red Bear/Grey Wolf; Italy books; and pdfs covering the same period/regions, would that exclude anyone or put any noses out of joint?

Stu's Idle wrote:The 25th is no good for CJ and I (off to watch Wales vs New Zealand) and the 26th might well see us both too hungover to play.


Noted - happy to look at e.g. the 2nd/3rd of Dec instead if that's generally more convenient for people.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Vyper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:40 pm

By tank companies only, are we actually limiting the options to only tanks on the field, or are we still permitting infantry/artillery within a tank company?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:34 pm

Vyper wrote:By tank companies only, are we actually limiting the options to only tanks on the field, or are we still permitting infantry/artillery within a tank company?


Intent would be to field tank companies, but following normal force charts, ie with infantry and guns as appropriate.

At a stretch, we might also allow mechanised companies if someone was dead set on playing an armoured car force - but by application.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Wiggles » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:11 pm

I voted late war because I didn't want to be left out, but I'm really happy for anything.

As for dates, Doodle?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:34 pm

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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Not that my view counts for anything (Alex can organise whatever he likes) but potentially owning more tank companies than the 'average bear', I'd endorse 'Overlord/Atlantik Wall; Red Bear/Grey Wolf; Fortress Italy / Road to Rome' as excellent books for consistent matched play on the day.

I'd also endorse 1525pts as a points threshold (for similar reasons)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:14 am

Jamrowski wrote:Not that my view counts for anything (Alex can organise whatever he likes) but potentially owning more tank companies than the 'average bear', I'd endorse 'Overlord/Atlantik Wall; Red Bear/Grey Wolf; Fortress Italy / Road to Rome' as excellent books for consistent matched play on the day.

I'd also endorse 1525pts as a points threshold (for similar reasons)


Yep, this matches my list above; plus I'd lean toward allowing related pdfs, e.g. "Panzer Brigades on the Eastern Front, HG on the Eastern Front", as I don't think they tend to be too overpowered. There are definitely some very strong lists in these books (e.g. Allied tank lists with double Fireflies), but by and large I'd consider them to be acceptably balanced.

I don't have a good feel for the balance (although my gut is that their tanks tend to be a bit weaker than their infantry), but I'd also be tempted to allow Japanese tanks, at their LW points, if anyone is mad enough to want to play them.

I don't think that then excludes any LW nation?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:30 am

Lavallin wrote:
Jamrowski wrote:Not that my view counts for anything (Alex can organise whatever he likes) but potentially owning more tank companies than the 'average bear', I'd endorse 'Overlord/Atlantik Wall; Red Bear/Grey Wolf; Fortress Italy / Road to Rome' as excellent books for consistent matched play on the day.

I'd also endorse 1525pts as a points threshold (for similar reasons)


Yep, this matches my list above; plus I'd lean toward allowing related pdfs, e.g. "Panzer Brigades on the Eastern Front, HG on the Eastern Front", as I don't think they tend to be too overpowered. There are definitely some very strong lists in these books (e.g. Allied tank lists with double Fireflies), but by and large I'd consider them to be acceptably balanced.

I don't have a good feel for the balance (although my gut is that their tanks tend to be a bit weaker than their infantry), but I'd also be tempted to allow Japanese tanks, at their LW points, if anyone is mad enough to want to play them.

I don't think that then excludes any LW nation?


Yep, sensible pdf's should be eligible; mute point, but I don't believe the 'double Firefly' lists came into effect until Market Garden (and beyond)?

As long as it's a dedicated Japanese Tank company (and not a Japanese Infantry Company with Tanks <fundamental difference>), I'd have no issue. If you are allowing a Japanese Infantry Company (with Tanks), then in the interest of fairness I'd suggest that anyone can field an Infantry Company if they so choose (which I know from experience can present challenges in terms of the timings on the day)

As per previous post - it's your event, you set the rules / agree list parameters (If there's a Jap Infantry list on the day, it would just seem harsh to turn away / not allow Brit Para's, Fallschirmjaeger, Strelkovy etc)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby andycuk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:46 am

Time to find a list that plays as many Fireflies and M10s as possible, if Alex is coming with StuGageddon again :D
Overlord certainly doesn't have double fireflies, just the standard "one per platoon", except for the 4th guards that offer a single 4 unit "Firefly platoon" instead, but at Veteran, darned expensive.
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:26 am

andycuk wrote:Time to find a list that plays as many Fireflies and M10s as possible, if Alex is coming with StuGageddon again :D
Overlord certainly doesn't have double fireflies, just the standard "one per platoon", except for the 4th guards that offer a single 4 unit "Firefly platoon" instead, but at Veteran, darned expensive.


Market Garden is the 'go to' book for British / Canadian lists (although 7th AD in Overlord are always competitive); for bigger point games Road to Rome has some interesting Veteran 76mm Sherman platoons under the guise of New Zealand / Canadian and South African Nationalities plus some great Churchill Tank lists.

If you are looking to source a list from Overlord (that isn't 7th AD), you may want to ensure you have a Platoon of M10 17pdrs in your force (sure they are the ultimate 'glass cannons' but they can turn a game in an instant :D ) to back up the limited number of Firefly's (with the gun Tank rule removed and the opponent able to allocate hits < sure you can always make a 3+ roll to reassign>, you know any Firefly's on the board are going to be 'premium' targets) :mrgreen:
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:30 am

Jamrowski wrote:Yep, sensible pdf's should be eligible; mute point, but I don't believe the 'double Firefly' lists came into effect until Market Garden (and beyond)?


You may well be right - for some reason though I thought Italian lists could do that too, but I may be getting confused. I don't have my books here to check.

As long as it's a dedicated Japanese Tank company (and not a Japanese Infantry Company with Tanks <fundamental difference>), I'd have no issue. If you are allowing a Japanese Infantry Company (with Tanks), then in the interest of fairness I'd suggest that anyone can field an Infantry Company if they so choose (which I know from experience can present challenges in terms of the timings on the day)

As per previous post - it's your event, you set the rules / agree list parameters (If there's a Jap Infantry list on the day, it would just seem harsh to turn away / not allow Brit Para's, Fallschirmjaeger, Strelkovy etc)


Totally agreed - we should be fair and consistent for all. And at the moment, unless there's a howl of protest, that means Tank Companies. (And possibly Mechanised if anyone really, really wants to play an Armoured Car list - but only in that form, and not for half-tracked infantry.)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:34 am

Talking of mech lists...

A bit random, but would a HG SCHWERE AUFKLÄRUNGSSCHWADRON be a legal force for the event?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby andycuk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:59 am

"Market Garden is the 'go to' book for British / Canadian lists "
Fair enough, I only ever bought Overlord in the past and am a little hesitant buying any other books currently, knowing they are "technically" out of date.
I could add the Market Garden lists to ForcesofWar at the least, I just rather like an actual book to read sometimes :)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Wiggles » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:22 am

Jamrowski wrote:
Market Garden is the 'go to' book for British / Canadian lists


The para list from MG is almost identical yet objectively worse than the O list!
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:54 am

Jamrowski wrote:Talking of mech lists...

A bit random, but would a HG SCHWERE AUFKLÄRUNGSSCHWADRON be a legal force for the event?


Again, I don't have my books with me, so I'd have to check. From memory, is that one platoon of halftracked infantry and one of Wespes as the core units?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:12 pm

Lavallin wrote:
Jamrowski wrote:Talking of mech lists...

A bit random, but would a HG SCHWERE AUFKLÄRUNGSSCHWADRON be a legal force for the event?


Again, I don't have my books with me, so I'd have to check. From memory, is that one platoon of halftracked infantry and one of Wespes as the core units?


As good as; they are actually Pioneers in KFZ 70's with Wespes backed by Armour choices in the Support Platoon list.

Another one that crossed my mind for the rules police (possibly less contentious than the above): Soviet Forward Detachment from Red Bear (PEREDOVOYE OTRYAD). It's mechanised but in a Soviet way: HQ is Infantry plus a Tank, Core Choices are Tank Platoon plus an Infantry Platoon.....
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Jamrowski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:13 pm

Wiggles wrote:
Jamrowski wrote:
Market Garden is the 'go to' book for British / Canadian lists


The para list from MG is almost identical yet objectively worse than the O list!


Lol - I'll rephrase; it's my go to list for British and Canadian Armour (Double Firefly's anyone?) and awesome Canadian Infantry :D

It's a damn good book for my American Para's also - 'Sceaming Eagles' with Panzerfausts......yes please!

Polish Para's with 'Double Firefly' Armoured support choices......get-in!

Canadian Infantry with uber cheap Sherman Breaching platoons (ok Breachers are not quite as good in V4).......the gift that keeps on giving!

Sherman Companies with Double FireFly's and Archer support......sweet baby Jesus!

**Alex: at the risk of scope creep is it too late to include Market Garden in the list of eligible books (it'll be the start of a slippery slope.....we'll be requesting the Ardennes book next to counter Market Garden :lol: )?
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Wiggles » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:23 pm

I'd like to retract my previous comment about the MG para list; I meant the digital exclusive list from Nachtjager...
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:37 pm

Jamrowski wrote:Lol - I'll rephrase; it's my go to list for British and Canadian Armour (Double Firefly's anyone?) and awesome Canadian Infantry :D

It's a damn good book for my American Para's also - 'Sceaming Eagles' with Panzerfausts......yes please!

Polish Para's with 'Double Firefly' Armoured support choices......get-in!

Canadian Infantry with uber cheap Sherman Breaching platoons (ok Breachers are not quite as good in V4).......the gift that keeps on giving!

Sherman Companies with Double FireFly's and Archer support......sweet baby Jesus!

**Alex: at the risk of scope creep is it too late to include Market Garden in the list of eligible books (it'll be the start of a slippery slope.....we'll be requesting the Ardennes book next to counter Market Garden :lol: )?


Personally, I'd rather not include the Market Garden books, for three reasons:

-Firstly, the force org charts are, in my opinion, sufficiently stronger than Overlord and Italy that - as you say - it becomes the "go to" book and effectively obsoletes two others (a clear sign IMHO of power creep)
-Secondly, it marks the point where a number of stat improvements come in e.g. the 17-pdr increase from AT14 to AT15, which makes a marked difference in the survivability of vehicles around the FA9 - 10 mark
-Thirdly, it adds strong options for the Allies, while Bridge by Bridge offers somewhat less to the Germans (two indifferent assault gun companies, overpriced KTs, a Panther company with three-tank platoons, and the admittedly quite cool KG Hummel)
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Re: Tanksgiving 2017

Postby Lavallin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:13 pm

Jamrowski wrote:
Lavallin wrote:
Jamrowski wrote:Talking of mech lists...

A bit random, but would a HG SCHWERE AUFKLÄRUNGSSCHWADRON be a legal force for the event?


Again, I don't have my books with me, so I'd have to check. From memory, is that one platoon of halftracked infantry and one of Wespes as the core units?


As good as; they are actually Pioneers in KFZ 70's with Wespes backed by Armour choices in the Support Platoon list.

Another one that crossed my mind for the rules police (possibly less contentious than the above): Soviet Forward Detachment from Red Bear (PEREDOVOYE OTRYAD). It's mechanised but in a Soviet way: HQ is Infantry plus a Tank, Core Choices are Tank Platoon plus an Infantry Platoon.....


Right, official (sounding) ruling time:

HG Schwereaufklärungsschwadron is out, because the majority of its core units are infantry or gun teams.

The Peredovoye Otryad is in because, not counting the two transport platoons, >50% of its core units can be taken from units which are composed of Tank Teams. BUT if you want to take this list, it also has to be built this way, with >50% of your core units as Tank type.

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